V12 Engine - Lambo Lounge

Engine - V12

Fletch

Some one possed the question... "In your travels have you found anyone that you have faith is that can provide 850 V-12 engines and G-50 transaxles on a regular basis".

I pased this question on to a few different builders...

Endre (Andy) Bujtas

You'll soon realize the problems with this combination and will want to shy away from it. First, the Porsche G50 is a BIG transaxle and he will probably have to cut a section from the rear of the body for it to fit. That would take away from the replica's authenticity. Second, the BMW V12 is a BIG engine. He will probably have to push the engine into the chassis tunnel. The problem with this is that the distributors are up front and will be quite difficult to get to if the front of the engine is in the tunnel. Third, and the worst is the electronics. He will have to get the BMW computer and connect all the sensors of this puppy and to connect it to the custom wiring harness, which must be fabricated for his tube chassis. Then get it running and tuned.

As yet, there is no one out there that I know that has successfully gotten their BMW V12 to run in their replica. By success I mean having a running (driveable) chassis with this engine. And those that are using the BMW engine are using the shorter Audi trans and not a Porsche trans.

As for becoming a supplier of such a package, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. The demand would be too low for the headaches involved. If I were to do something like this, I would wait for the Cadillac V12 engine. It is designed to be the size of a V8 with low hood clearance. I'll wait to see what kind of trans package Cadillac plans for this engine.

Craig Nadeau I still don't get this one - they all talk big about this but there is not one V12 ON THE ROAD in a Diablo yet. The CCD car is a year from being finished. The engine is not great, it has passable horsepower and there are virtually no performance parts for it, hense it's relatively good availability and the G-50 is massively expensive, the machine work is extensive to flip the differential and it cannot be run upside down due to oiling issues. One of the other big issues is that it is designed to make power in a relatively low range while the Porsche tranny is designed to be used in the higher ranges. Everyone who does not have a kit wants it becasue of the authentic look of the engine bay but ignores the affect it has on the outside of the car. Kennedy Eng. does not even have an adaptor for it and the electronics cost around $3500 to make it run. It pushes into the seating area and stretches out the back of the car and that is with the axles running at an angle. I just don't see how this is a good option. With all that said, Kudos to those who have the audacity, time and money to make it all work.
Notice that the top part of the center console is gone - that is a full 4", and while the pic does not show it well the steering is really close to where the seat will be. There is no room for a speaker in that firewall.
Here is the audi tranny hanging out the back.
here is the axle running at an angle - look between the shock and the upper a-arm.

Keith B.

The Jaguar v12 is out of the XJS series of the late 80's (i believe) to the earily 90's. They were available with a V6 option and a V12. Strangly enough the V12 was more common, or at least that is what I have found to be true. The V 12's are a 6.0L SOHC that produces 301HP, backed with a 4-speed automatic. I found a free e-book on the xjs model you might find interesting. It's at http://www.jag-lovers.org/xj-s/book/Jaguar.html . I haven't bothered to read it, but you should get your answers there. There is also a site for installing a manual transmission www.keislerauto.com/jaguar/transmission/manual_transmissions.htm but it is either under construction, or nonexistant. So there are kits out there for a stick. I hope this helps and good luck with the site cuz it is a nice one!

The following information (in the Red outline) is from the Diablo Support Forum.

http://www.kitcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000832.html

Keith Billanti
Member posted 29 October 2002 02:13 PM
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So I have found a place that will sell me a turnkey v12 BMW motor. Including everything it needs to run. It is a good price so I will not announce untill I decide what I am doing.
My question is, what is it going to take to make it fit? Do I have to move the firewall? I know a couple people say that it will fit but others say nay... What is a guy to do? What is necessary? How far off is it?
Keith

Jack Bray, Jr.
Member posted 29 October 2002 02:40 PM
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Keith, I think I can see why you're getting two different stories. My own situation is a 350SB with an Audi 5000s transmission behind it. It is going to protrude into the cabin slightly if I set the drive axles at 90 deg. to the chassis. So if you look at an extra two cylinders forward of my 350SB, it will be too far forward. And it also depends on what you're putting behind it for a trans.My car is a D&R (ADL) 97 and my engine-trans. dimension is 34" from the centerline of the axle shaft to the front of the water pump.If you can compare that dimension with the setup you're planning on using you can see how much more or less than my setup will exist.
IP: Logged

Keith Billanti
Member posted 29 October 2002 04:28 PM
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The drive shafts dont have to be exactly 90deg.. do they? I know you loose lifespan with any serious angle.. regarless I am sure that the max angle they could be extended to will not make up the extra room I will need. I read on lambo lounge that the engine is just under 30" long and by the looks of it the tranny without an adaptor plate is about 6"-7" from axle center to the edge of the tranny. add 2" for adaptor and 2" for clearance and that brings my needs to nearly 40" from axle centerline... You say you are close at 34".. OUCH.... i thought someone said you can move the firewall forward.. is this possible? Reasonable?
Keith

Earl87gta
Member posted 30 October 2002 07:34 PM
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From center line of axle to the engine including adapter for the audi is 9in and I think porch is 9 1/2 that is what kennedy Eng. told me when I priced the adapter kits. He also seaid that with the track of ower cars he would not set tha trans back more then 2in.

Keith Billanti
Member posted 30 October 2002 09:02 PM
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So essentially I was within an inch in my guesstimate. Rougly 40 inches in total from front of engine to axle centerline. I can set it back 2, 3 if I want to chance it... so I am still at 37"....And Mr. Bray is really tight at 34". Looks like the firewall will have to come forward 6" if it is going to happen. Is it possible? Will I still fit in the car?
KB

Earl87gta
Member posted 30 October 2002 09:35 PM
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I was looking in to trans axls so I qould do the swap my car has a 94 in WB wishi I would have gotten a streched vertion now. Im using a tornado trans now and think their is enough room for the v12 with this trans but I dont know if the cross overr for the axle that now goes threw the oil pan would clear the bmw engine Iv ben trying to find a blown engine to use to see if I could get it to work. I would hate to buy a good engine and then not beable to use it.
Earl

Ron Boudreau
Member posted 31 October 2002 05:09 AM
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The Audi Trans up against the adapter plate makes the front of the engine to the axle center line 38.5 inches.

Keith Billanti
Member posted 31 October 2002 09:15 AM
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And with an 11" stretch,, what is the room we have to work with? (I dont have my donor yet..)

Keith

BradyD
Member posted 31 October 2002 09:22 AM
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Keith it depends on the kit you buy, the Diablo uses a cab-forward design and the fiero is not, so some kit manufactures utilize the stock fiero cab position by making the roof line on their kits longer than the real thing, in turn the dash is longer and the seats and firewall are set back further in the car. If you look at the IFG and D&R kits you will notice this.
Other makers utilize a closer to original roof line so you have to move everything forward appropriately, firewall, steering column, dash, pedals etc. Therefore those kits have a few extra inches of room behind the firewall.

scotco2727
New Member posted 31 October 2002 11:46 AM
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What place is selling you this v12 turnkey. I too have been offered to build a v12 turnkey and am just wondering if it is the same place. You can email me if you want at scotco2727@yahoo.com

janice_ho
Member posted 31 October 2002 01:22 PM
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BradyD - this is the first I have ever heard of this having to move the front Firewall. Every kit I have seen is designed around the Fiero and uses the stock locations for the pedals. Most of the kits relocate the steering. The rear firewall on most every Diablo kit is ahead of the original fire wall by several inches BUT the engine if too large does is lower than most of the firewall and may requre moving the fuel tank. The Lambo firewall is vertical and the Fiero wall is not.
IMO, buy the kit first, then worry about all the other stuff. It is pretty easy to get very hung up on the fine details and ignore the bigger picture.

BradyD
Member posted 31 October 2002 01:30 PM
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I may be wrong but I though that on the Creative and CRP kits you had to move the front firewall and pedals forward 4 inches.

emakabi
unregistered posted 31 October 2002 01:36 PM
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If you are wondering how it will look, go check out my diary pics.
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Eddie

Keith Billanti
Member posted 31 October 2002 06:19 PM
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Eddie,,
I looked at your diary,,, no sign of any firewall stretches,,,, ????

Keith

Voltes
Member posted 02 November 2002 10:29 AM
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I had toyed with the idea of the BMW engine. What I found was that with the original style kits where the Diablo rear window is in the correct location such as the EAW kis and like BradyD said CRP or Creative Coach, the engine will fit inside the correct firewall. By using a pantera zf transaxle and the adapter bellhousing you have just enough room if you use the BMW 750 engine. You will need the flywheel from an 850 stick model. From what I was told the 750's did not come in stick, only auto. I actually purcahsed a bellhousing for this conversion but decided not to use it. By moving some hoses around at the front of the engine you can acheive a 29" distance from front to back for engine only. The bellhousing adds 5 inches towards the tranny and I believe another 4 or 5 inches to the axle center line. I don't have exact dimensions in front of me but can get them if someone needs them.All in all it will be a tight fit but I do recall from my research that it will work without having to tweak your axles. If anyone wants an adapter, I will sell mine. Plus you can contact Harouts BMW salvage yard in Sun Valley California. He was priced well with the engines at about $3500.00 for the complete runner

Earl87gta
Member posted 03 November 2002 12:00 AM
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DOes any one have know the distence from the center of the fly wheel to the botom of the engine. My car has atornodo trans in it with a 350 chevy I would like to take the 350 out and put a bmw v12 in but I dont know if thr axle shaft will clear the bottom of the engine or not.
Earl

Ron Boudreau
Member posted 03 November 2002 06:08 AM
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Approximately 8 1/4

tecsuo
Member posted 19 April 2003 10:17 AM
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Do anyone have a good copy of the
Lamborghini Fuel Injection Manifold to intergrate with the v8

lambo1
Member posted 25 April 2003 09:05 PM
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I think these guys squeezed one in...click on current builds http://www.lambokit.com/

tecsuo
Member posted 26 April 2003 12:31 PM
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I see a bmw v12 engine, but I don't see were they copied the v12 manifold and intergrated it with v8?

Although my information comes from various builders and sources, if you want any information contact me. The photographs used on this site are used with permission, if you want to use any, contact them through the various links on this site. I did and you can see the results!