Chassis - Transmission - 5000 Audi

The Audi 5000 transmission that the 5000s and 5000cs have different final drives. s=4.11:1 cs=3.89:1

Scott Belford

Audi Transmission Diagram

Here's a little information on this transmission. The transaxel installed in the Audi 5000 and the Porsche 944 is mechanically identical with the exception of reverse gear synchronizer added to the 5000 models. The porsche 944 models have a driveshaft tube, attched to the transaxel bellhousing which extends forward to the clutch housing at the rear of the engine. On the audi this transmission is located at the front of the car attached to the engine, in the porsche it located at the rear with the engine in the front, connected by a drive shaft.

Okay this sounded way to good to pass up so I did some investigating. I have found out, the 5000s and 5000s turbo are the exact same transmissions. I talked to a local performance transmission shop and they feel the audi 5000s transmission if cared for is good for about 450 to 500 hp.

okay here's the other plus's it has a hydrolic slave cylinder, the dif's are going the right way. the cv axel locations are 1/2" closer to the front of the bell housing then the porche 915. and it keeps getting better, the shifter is located on top of the transmission midway and uses the same type shifting as the fiero so it should be easy to adapt the stock fireo shifter, and the total length of the case is shorter then the porche. and now for the best part, its cheap. I picted one up this weekend for $45 dollars at a salvage yard, it has 26,000 actual miles on it I will post pictures this week. I have also done lots of checking for the adapter plate. I have a good friend that owns a machine shop and I will have him make me one. I will provide the engineering drawing to anybody that would like them for free.

 
Well my response to everybody’s doubts about the Audi transmission is as follows, first based on price, I picked up my transmission with low miles on it for 45 dollars, verses on the low side 1000, to 3000 for the Porsche 915. Second on the price for the adapter plate, flywheel, pilot bearing and starter, for $ 750 dollars all of them, verses $1,800 for the Porsche and that doesn’t include the upgraded starter. Then the Porsche has 600 dollars more in labor to set it up to be used for the project, The Audi can be rebuilt with upgraded carrier bearings and some other internal upgraded parts for less then 500 dollars. Then there’s the problem with the Porsche shifting and hydraulics, not to mention the length of the Porsche transmission. Some quick math on the transmissions, Audi rebuilt with upgraded internal parts and all adapter parts and starter. 1,295 dollars, Porsche rebuilt with adapter parts, no starter or hydraulics, total low end 3,800 dollars plus about another 1000 to get it working. Strength, ill give it that the upgraded Porsche will probable out perform my Audi slightly but I express slightly.
 

I’m not trying to be cocky on this subject but I have done tons of research and talked to many transmission builders in Phoenix and I feel confident this transmission will perform as excepted, but if for some reason I abuse this transmission and tear it up, I can install roughly 34 Audi transmissions for the price of one Porsche 915.

This transmission is nice, needs about two cans of degreeser but will be nice once all cleaned up

Started Laying out the adapter plate for the transmission.

Im using a 1/2" steel plate, I wanted to use 8061-t6 aluminum but the price is just outragous.

The transmission bolt will clear all locations on the lt1 block so there is no need to recess the bolt heads This will make for a stronger plate in the end.

 

Scott Belford - Audi Adapter Kit

For everybody looking to mate a LT1, or SBC to the Audi 5000 transmission, This picture shows all of what is included in the kit from Kennedy Engineered Products. The kit I have shown is with a stage II clutch mounted to the custom flywheel.

This Photo shows the the adapter, custom starter, aluminum flywheel with steel ring gear, throw out bearing, stage II clutch package and all mounting hardware. The workman ship is exceptional, everything needed to mate is included.

Total kit cost $1,070.00 US dollars but if you don't order the clutch setup, you can pick it up for $650.00 dollars. The adapter plate it 3/4" thick, but I dont see that as being a problem with my setup.

Adapter Plate and Flywheel


Mounted the Adapter plate and Flywheel O recieved from KEP, everything fit perfectly, I also test fit the starter, and then removed it for safe keeping, it also fit correct

Transmission Height


okay here's a perfect example of measure 5 times build once, and for gods sake only tack weld in place till you know it works. I will have alot of grinding to do to relocate the engine up about 3 inches. The angle is not as bad as the photo shows only about 2 deg's off center for the axels, but way to low.

Rear View


Here's a good shot of the transmission height before I raise it up 3 inches, will pretty much disappear behind the fiberglass, plus I can redo the cross member out of tub to get more ground clearance. Like I said before, measure 5 times for your one time build. I have created alot of excess work for myself

 

These are some of the modifications that Scott did to his Fiero cradel and frame to accept the Audi transmisson.

Scott Belford

Cradel Layout

Started laying out the engine cradel modifications, purchased a engine crossmember from a local shop for 54 dollars should make job alot easier

Cradel test fit

Installed engine to make sure clearances work on crossmember supports

Rear frame notch

Will have to notch rear frame cross member to make clearance for Audi 5000 transmission. Yellow lines will be cut out and then capped

Transmission Cross Member

I uses 1x3 tubing for this cross member, but I think I will have to rethink its construction. once installed I did som measurements and once the suspension is lowered and 18" wheels installed ill only be 3" from the ground to the bottom of cross member. Thats a little to close for me

Transmission Install


Test fit the transmission, mated perfectly to the adapter and flywheel assembly, but oops i goofed on the height of the engine and transmission

 

 

Ron Boudreau

After getting back from Carlisle 2002, I searched for an Audi 5000 transmission. At the local salvage yard I do business with they ran a computer search and found one with 36K miles on it in Pennsylvania. So they shipped it out and I took it home. Upon degreasing it I found the mounting bosses had been broken and welded to make it look like they had never been broken. In short I sent it back but not before I took pictures of it in the position it would be if mated to the BMW. So these will give you an idea of what it all looks like without the adapter plates.

This engine is 29 1/4 inches long, with all the cast iron exhust manifolds off I estimate it is under 500lbs.

I have also developed an idea of how to reduce the adapter distance by 1". I'm thinking of counter boring the mounting holes from the transmission mounting face in by whatever amount it takes to clear the bolt heads and then make a adapter pick up the bolts on the back side of the bossed. This would allow the transmission face to come to within a sixteenth or so of clearance between it and the BMW flywheel. The total added distance then would be approximately one inch.

From the surface where the pressure plate mounts to the clutch contact surface on the flywheel it is .960.

Just for you information while the flywheel was still mounted to the Audi engine I measured from the engine–trans mounting surface to the pressure plate mounting surface on the flywheel and that dimension was 2.060. So that is the dimension the pressure plate mounting surface has to be from the mounting surface of the transmission to have the clutch sit on the drive shaft spline correctly.

 

 

Tim Watson

This is a PIC of my rear mounts for the Audi Trans, I made my own side brackets and used Chevy automatic trans mounts.

 

The following information (in the Red outline) is from the Diablo Support Forum.

 

Nocturnalhitman
New Member posted 15 May 2002 05:42 AM
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Ok, I have researched and researched forever on how the best way to mount my LT1 350ci. will be. I am sold on the idea of mounting it Longways or (longitudinal) into a transaxle. My transaxle of choice was to be the Porsche 930 series but the cost was in the ballpark of around $6,000 from start to finish. This sucks. However, I talked to Ray at IFG and he has told me about the latest craze in transaxles. The Audi Quattro transaxle. The only problem is I forgot to ask if there is a certain model number or year to look for. Anybody got any answers?

Ron Boudreau
New Member posted 31 May 2002 06:06 AM
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Scott is ahead on this one. He says any Audi 5000 from 84-87 two wheel drive trans are all the same. Look at his progress in the photo section. You can also see the implamentation of this in lamboloung pictures from Carlisle in the CCD frame section. Also I am looking for an Audi Getrag 3V transaxle it has a larger bell housing and I think it will be easier to adapt and use a larger cluch and pressure plate. The 5000 bell housing has a small diameter the Getrag is mush bigger. You can see the Getrag on lambolounge pictures from Carlisle. Its in the GT40 section. Also if any one knows which Audi used this trans could you let us know I'm still trying to find out which car this was in.

 

 

janice_ho
Member posted 20 February 2002 08:26 AM
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I had shot this down before as make believe but this weekend I witnessed a kit builder who had put a BMW V12 into the Diablo Chassis. It is a couple of inches longer than the SBC but it fit. It cost a couple grand and then the electronics cost a "few" grand more. So not a cheap option but interesting. The other interesting thing is that they used the Audi 5000 S Turbo transmission. As it comes from a front wheel drive you do not have to flip the diff over. It looks similar to the Porsche tranny and has a similar shift mechanism. Apparently it is capable of over 500 hp. The big bonus here is these trannies are almost free at most wrecking yards - he had 6 sitting ready to go. This builder made his own adaptor plate out of 1" aluminum.
He didn't want me to take pictures sorry.
Interesting . . .

 

scottcb
Member posted 24 February 2002 05:55 PM
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Okay this sounded way to good to pass up so I did some investigating. I have found out, the 5000s and 5000s turbo are the exact same transmissions. I talked to a local performance transmission shop and they feel the audi 5000s transmission if cared for is good for about 450 to 500 hp.

okay here's the other plus's it has a hydrolic slave cylinder, the dif's are going the right way. the cv axel locations are 1/2" closer to the front of the bell housing then the porche 915. and it keeps getting better, the shifter is located on top of the transmission midway and uses the same type shifting as the fiero so it should be easy to adapt the stock fireo shifter, and the total length of the case is shorter then the porche. and now for the best part, its cheap. I picted one up this weekend for 45 dollars at a salvage yard, it has 26,000 actual miles on it I will post pictures this week. I have also done lots of checking for the adapter plate. I have a good friend that owns a machine shop and I will have him make me one. I will provide the engineering drawing to anybody that would like them for free.

Scott

 

Chris Thomas
Member posted 24 February 2002 09:56 PM
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I have a 1996 LT4 from a vette that I plan on using for my build. I have been leaning towards the Porche 915 transaxle, but the Audi 5000s sound very interesting. Any ideas on which flywheel to use for this setup and where to get one?
Thanks,
Chris

 

opm2000@aol.com
Member posted 27 February 2002 03:23 AM
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url for mating an LT1 to an Audi Transmission
http://www.msu.edu/user/dupreer1/flyinghead/index.html
This sounds pretty interesting, scottcb, you've got mail.

David Breeze

 

scottcb
Member posted 27 February 2002 06:51 AM
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I have been doing lots of research on the balancing or lack of balancing on different flywheels and there sizes, teeth count and so on.... I havent tested this out yet but it looks like with minor modifications the audi flywheel can be used. This weekend I am planning on really digging into this mating and I will take tons of pictures of good and bad things I find out.
Scott

 

kevkev 60
New Member posted 27 February 2002 04:20 PM
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The Audi 5000s Transmission sounds great but is it posi traction or single drive? Most front drive tranny's don't need to be posi traction for the simple fact you can steer the drive wheels in the correct direction. Usually the right side wheel drives forward, which is where the term "torgue steer" came from Just some FYI, any thought's on that.

 
Ron Boudreau
New Member posted 28 February 2002 06:20 AM
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kevkev
You have been misinformed. There are no transmissions that drive only the front right wheel. That is not how a diferential works. There are spidergears where each axle fit in. There purpose is to allow for the difference in turning radius when a car goes around a corner. In a stright line both wheels recieve even torque. A limited slip differential has a set of mechanical clutches that limit the slip on inside wheel when turning so it never goes to 0. Torque steer is caused by turning the wheel while under power and the out side wheel getting the most torque. With the trans in the rear and the wheels always pointing ahead most of the time this won't come into play. The main reason limited slip is used is when applying torque off the line your tires will see different amounts of traction and the the one with the least will brake loose. to counter this you use a limited slip differential insure some power is always going to both wheels preventing rear torque steer. In a stright line with equal surface friction both wheels will always drive.
janice_ho
Member posted 28 February 2002 09:30 AM
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I would guess that by far most differentials even rear diffs are not posi. If you were a drag racer you might weld the diff to be fixed. I know what you mean by torque steer though but it is not really a solution to an open diff, it is more of a problem with having unequal length axles - I never quite understood this but the Intrepids went to a system with equal lenght axles and got rid of most of the torque steer. In any case, there is probably some big potential in the Audi tranny posi or not.

Wilson Klassen
Member posted 28 February 2002 09:43 AM
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The reason that having equal length half shafts help reduce torque steer is that the shafts themselves act as torsional springs. The same thing applies to the amount of torque that can be applied to a screw with a long or short shafted screw driver. Having different length half shafts, the longer shaft will have more torque engery stored with the shaft, which means less torque to the tire.

CrashRat
New Member posted 09 March 2002 12:51 PM
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okay, what about the 5000s trans with a quaife atb diff? according to their website http://www.quaife.co.uk/product/atb.htm the 5000s isn't on their currently-marketed list but they say up front they're willing to consider making a batch (ie, enough people interested in this?). sounds kinda cool and way cheaper than a $3-5k G50. I want to think Quaife diffs are around $900-1200? AND you lose some of hte install headache (BIG bonus)....anybody still interested in checking into this? or have we all given up on the idea? I'm a geek not a gearhead so wouldn't be the one to pull together all the research. definitely curious about the results though.

 

janice_ho
Member posted 15 April 2002 02:40 PM
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This is something that Jeff from Transaxle Engineering just emailed me back . . .
"the Audi/944 unit is ok if you just want to putt around w/ a really mild motor...the ring gear diameter and diff carrier brgs are way too small to handle any power....Porsche found that out when the turbo 944 came out in 1986....better to do it once/right and use the 915....$500 for adapter and flywheel, $500 to $1100 for clutch assy& starter ring gr....trans has to
come completely apart to flip ring gear & needs to any way to install chromoly pinion bearing support and pinion thrust bearing....trans is usually $600 labor ( and that includes magnaflux inspection to be sure we are not just reassembling fatigued parts) plus parts to do your used unit...or we can supply on an outright basis... please feel free to call with any further
questions. Thanks, Jeff Field 818 998 2739"

[This message has been edited by janice_ho (edited 15 April 2002).]

 

scottcb
Member posted 17 April 2002 08:53 AM
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Well my response to everybody’s doubts about the Audi transmission is as follows, first based on price, I picked up my transmission with low miles on it for 45 dollars, verses on the low side 1000, to 3000 for the Porsche 915. Second on the price for the adapter plate, flywheel, pilot bearing and starter, for $ 750 dollars all of them, verses $1,800 for the Porsche and that doesn’t include the upgraded starter. Then the Porsche has 600 dollars more in labor to set it up to be used for the project, The Audi can be rebuilt with upgraded carrier bearings and some other internal upgraded parts for less then 500 dollars. Then there’s the problem with the Porsche shifting and hydraulics, not to mention the length of the Porsche transmission. Some quick math on the transmissions, Audi rebuilt with upgraded internal parts and all adapter parts and starter. 1,295 dollars, Porsche rebuilt with adapter parts, no starter or hydraulics, total low end 3,800 dollars plus about another 1000 to get it working. Strength, ill give it that the upgraded Porsche will probable out perform my Audi slightly but I express slightly. I’m not trying to be cocky on this subject but I have done tons of research and talked to many transmission builders in Phoenix and I feel confident this transmission will perform as excepted, but if for some reason I abuse this transmission and tear it up, I can install roughly 34 Audi transmissions for the price of one Porsche 915.
Scott

 

Ron Boudreau
New Member posted 17 April 2002 10:40 AM
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Canadian Custom Designs uses the Audi and they said they use it in both racing applications and on their V12 Diablo and they have not had any problems whatsoever. As Janice said they will be at Carlisle with their car and frame to show. I hope they will have their V12 example there, but at least they will have a lot of things to look at. CCD seems to know what their talking about and I asked about the reliablity and they said they had less problems with the Audi than other trans combinations. Any way I will try and take as many pictures at Carlisle as possible.
Ron

 

 

Links:
Flying Head - information
TransAxle Engineering
Kennedy Engineered Products
Audi Fans

Audi World Site

Audi USA
01E 5 and 6 Speed Quattro Transmission - (Ron Boudreau writes) its more than you want to know and somewhat convaluted but what i got out of it was use an 88 up trans.

 
This entire Website is copyright © 2002-2004 by Ron Fletcher. All rights reserved.
Although my information comes from various builders and sources, if you want any information contact me. The photographs used on this site are used with permission, if you want to use any, contact them through the various links on this site. I did and you can see the results!